Failing Forward

Dave Hyman and Tron Scott join us to discuss the importance of failure, the lessons you can learn from it, and how to use it as a tool to build a stronger future for you and your organization. 

www.HaverkampGroup.com

Transcript

Todd Wuestenberg 0:07

Welcome to Haverchat, a leadership podcast where we explore the principles, the stories, and the people that shape great leadership. Hello everyone, I am Todd Wuestenberg, the Chief Culture Officer here at Haverkamp Group. And today we're going to have a conversation about failing forward in leadership. Joining us today are our two guests, Dave Hyman, the president of Haverkamp Properties, and Tron Scott, the vice president of Haverkamp Farm Management. Welcome, guys. Thanks for being here today. Thanks so much. We are making history today. Today, this is our first episode in our studio. What do you guys think about the studio? It's really nice. It's great.

Dave Hyman 0:42

Yeah, it looks nice.

Todd Wuestenberg 0:43

I'm really happy for Grayden because now Grayden doesn't have to do all this teardown and set up. He's got a home now. So before we dive into the questions, gentlemen, um, I would like each of you to just share your journey uh as friends because you guys are friends even before you started working here. I'd like to hear about your friendship journey as well as your journey here at Haverkamp.

Tron Scott 1:04

We were playing basketball down in a men's league in Ankeny. Okay. Just a bunch of old men that that are washed up and washed up from what, not being very good to begin with, right?

Dave Hyman 1:15

So it wasn't the A-League.

Tron Scott 1:16

No. It wasn't even B League. It wasn't the B League.

Dave Hyman 1:19

It was C League basketball in Ankeny. So none of us lived in Ankeny. Don't tell anybody.

Tron Scott 1:24

So we need a we need a big guy, right? So Dave, you want to play? Yeah, I'll play. So he comes down and he's he was all he's always been a guy that's worked out, right? And tries to keep in shape. And you know, basketball shapes are a little bit different than you know, than maybe cross-training shape, whatever. Well, he goes down and I find out have you played before Dave? Well, yeah, I played some. I played some. I thought, okay, that's fine. All right. And he gets in the league. Well, I find out that Dave, I think when he was born, his hands were actually attached backwards. Because the term is stone hands. He couldn't catch, he couldn't catch a cold if he had to. So uh, but it was fun.

Todd Wuestenberg 2:08

It was fun playing. We had a good time. All right, all right. Oh man, that's that's good stuff right there. All right. I don't know what that has to do with anything except the fact that obviously you guys have known each other for a while. Now you're working together. And this is the kind of stuff that happens all the time here at Haverkamp when you two are together, and it's it's really enjoyable. Now, talk about your positions here, a little bit of your journey to Haverkamp and how it is that the two of you began working together.

Dave Hyman 2:34

Yeah, so uh I actually started at Haverkamp when I was part-time maintenance when I was in college. Uh, had a bit of a different path, um, did some time on the retail businesses side. Uh yeah, we didn't share this, but oh, probably circa 2006 or so, I was managing a transmission re uh business in Ames and uh Tron came in and had a farm truck the transmission went out of, and so uh worked with him then. Uh but yeah, I was doing some retail business things, uh, came to Haverkamp properties, and uh I've said share this story before, but came to Haverkamp properties as a property manager, um left, went and owned a couple retail businesses, tried my hand at that, and then uh came back to Haverkamp properties and have uh done a few different things, but um been president now for uh going on five years.

Todd Wuestenberg 3:19

Right.

Dave Hyman 3:20

All right, your journey to Haverkamp.

Tron Scott 3:23

Yeah, so um my first first connection was was through Dave. Um and then I I ended up um getting connected to Paul and they were looking for um um someone to um mm uh farm some farmland for them. It was I don't know if it was the very f I don't think it was the first farm that they that that Brent had purchased, but it was one on the south side of South Side of Ames. And so I started there to I was farming that for them, and then they picked up some in southern Iowa and and a different piece, not clear, not quite down to Wayne County, but uh Marion County, and so I helped kind of manage that, and things just had progressed, and um Paul and I's relationship had grown, and then they decided to expand and start operating and managing. So on the Haverkamp farm side, um we're uh on the operations, actual grain production, we're about three, four thousand acres, and then on the managing side, about another three thousand. Uh so then there's some other other land outside of that, but that's kind of where we're sitting, and that's what we do on a day-to-day basis. Awesome. Thank you guys for sharing that.

Todd Wuestenberg 4:36

Um the next question before we dive into the topic of failing forward is want to get your definition of leadership. It's a question I'm gonna be asking every guest, and we'll start with you, Tron. So, how would you define leadership? What does it look like in action?

Tron Scott 4:49

Sure. Sure. Uh leadership is I think it's influencing people to come together for a common good. And you're trying to reach a goal. And you know, sometimes um I I view Sheri as an important part of what we do. And I I personally like how sheri is written from the top down. So S is stewardship, H is hard work, A is accountability, results driven, and at the bottom, top to bottom, for me, I, integrity is the bedrock, which fits well for us of what we do. Because for us to have stewardship, if if we are lacking in integrity as farmers, we want to be good stewards of the land. Right. Okay. We want to work hard, we want to be accountable because sometimes things don't go our way. But if we it we need to have integrity to be held accountable and we're results driven. So uh to me, leadership is influencing people for the common goal. But Sherry is important to what we do, and and the bedrock is integrity for us, for sure.

Todd Wuestenberg 5:54

Yeah, so uh just for our listeners, uh Sheri, our it's a representation of our core values, an acronym of all the ones that you just uh walked through there, Tron. So thanks for bringing Sheri into the conversation. Dave, how would you define leadership?

Dave Hyman 6:09

Yeah, boy, Tron, I appreciate you sharing about our core values. I think those are just instrumental to who we are, and uh couldn't have said that part better. I uh core values are our bedrock. And so that's great, great point there. Um, you know, I define leadership probably very similarly. I think there's a lot of definitions out there, but it in my opinion, I think leadership is just simply uh there's there's lots of different versions of this, but leadership is just simply uh moving a group of people somewhere um or or moving something somewhere, uh, whether you're trying to achieve a goal or or moving forward, but it it's literally just, I believe, uh who's in your wake? Uh, what what what group are you trying to move along?

Todd Wuestenberg 6:45

Okay. All right. In our very first uh leadership podcast with Brent, uh he said something that uh really struck me. Brent Haverkamp, our owner and founder for Haverkamp Group, he he talked about leadership and he talked about this idea of failing and that when we don't take the opportunity to learn from our failures or from adversity, we really miss out on something. So that's that's the framework of today's conversation is this idea of failing forward and learning from that. Um so Dave, I'll start with you. Uh how does that statement strike you? And is there anything in that context that really has shaped your leadership?

Dave Hyman 7:24

Well, yeah, I mean, I think that that's a very true statement, right? I think that failure is good. Um and so um what what we get from failure is growth, right? That failure just at least you hope that's what you get. Failure is gonna teach you something you you you want uh in its most positive connotation that you're gonna learn from it. And so uh when you fail, do you have the ability to self-reflect or have somebody around you to help you point out well why that failure happened? What did you learn from that and what growth can you see then from that? If everything's going well, it's hard to push yourself forward. What what's that motivation to do better? What's that motivation to do something with excellence if you're not seeing uh a chance of failure?

Todd Wuestenberg 8:09

Okay, Tron, uh that statement, uh again, in the context of your own leadership journey, how does that statement strike you?

Tron Scott 8:17

Sure. Uh to to build on what Dave has just stated, um, failure, it shapes you and and and hopefully, you know, with with the with a good foundation, you can take that failure and build on it, learn from it. He used the term self-reflection. I think that's important. We need to look inner. Um and and I've seen this play out. Um I've coached in the past, and you know, using it on a on a sports analogy, um, you you know, that's you can lose a game, right? And the object is at some at some point is to win win by one point. Well, in the business world, you know, failure some it's it takes a little longer to play out, but a bad decision or uh a mistake or something that's maybe out of your control can cost, and we need to learn from those and try and build on them.

Todd Wuestenberg 9:06

Yeah. Uh in the coaching world, Tron, you know this phrase that there are no such things as losses, just lessons. So um really appreciate you sharing that. So I'm gonna stick with you, Tron. Can you think of a of a time where you learn maybe a specific story of where failure changed how you led afterwards?

Tron Scott 9:26

Yeah. Um are you okay if I stick with the sports analysis? Oh, absolutely. Okay. You know I love sports, so we're so like I said, I've coached in the past back in the day, and and I was kind of reflecting, thinking about this earlier, and we uh we had a team, it was it was good, very good. We're a good team, and uh seniors, heavies, heavies, heavy laden with seniors, and we go into our final regular season game, and we're playing a five and sixteen team at home, and we get beat. And we're going into tournaments, and the way it's structured, it's you once you get into tournaments, it's one and done. You lose and you go home. And so it's you know, it's like DEF CON, you know, we moved to like DEF CON 2, DEF CON 1, right? And you're trying to figure out, oh man, we play again one and done in like three days. What are we gonna do? So I was thinking about it, and I ended up going to everyone that was in the rotation to their houses individually, one-on-one. And I asked each one of those guys an extremely difficult question. They no one could give me an answer for a couple of reasons. One, it's a hard question. Number two, teenage boys, you know, they maybe weren't able to articulate it. And my question was, what can I do to put you in the best spot to find success? And, you know, success for everyone, especially like in the game of basketball, means, you know, differently, and whether in the business world or whatnot. So no one was able to answer. But it ended up looking back at it as when I self-reflected, it freed up their mind to say, oh, our leader, our coach, whatever, your boss supports us and wants us to find success. And that freed them up, and we ended up getting on a run. Now, it's not the the the fairy tale storybook ending, but we we got hot and won a bunch of games in a row after that. So I learned at that point that communication and trying to help everyone out individually and as a group can get you in a spot to find that success. Maybe you get it, and maybe the success comes how you want it, maybe it doesn't. But you know, as a as a leader, you have an obligation to try and get your team into that that mold.

Todd Wuestenberg 11:45

All right. Dave, how about for you? Can you think of a time where learning from failure really changed your leadership?

Dave Hyman 11:52

Oh, yeah. I I always joke that I only learn from failure. I I get course corrected by two by fours on the side of the head, it seems like. So uh failures are probably too many to mention, um, but they're crucial in learning. And so what as a leader, I think that you have a goal in your mind, and but can you achieve it? And are you setting an aggressive enough goal? And do you have, do you want to win at it? Do you want to have success at it? Does the result matter? And as you work towards getting there, when you see failures or setbacks or obstacles, what does that do? Do you does it just cause you to pause or do you figure out ways to work around them to fail forward to get better at it? You know, John Maxwell has said that before about failing forward and just, and I think it's so crucial just to understand that. And I think also, too, as leaders, as you as you develop and you understand the importance of failure, a big thing is to teach that to others. And oftentimes we want to, we sometimes we see decisions that are going to be made and you know, yeah, I've done that decision and here's what happens. But sometimes we were allowed to make that decision and to fail and to learn from it. And it became impactful to us that we did learn from it. And so there's a fine line between knowing when is it okay for somebody to fail safely and when should you step in and say, okay, well, we we we shouldn't afford to fail that way. But uh, how do you teach failure and allow that to happen and help people to grow from it? And right, and failure can be debilitating too. You know, if you if you fail big enough, you can't stand there and uh wallow in your misery forever. You gotta pick yourself up and move forward. But yeah, so I think it's important to be able to teach failure as well.

Todd Wuestenberg 13:27

Do you have um a story kind of like what Tron does, as you've re uh or Tron did, I should say, uh, reflecting back. Man, this was something that I learned from a failure that really has um impacted me.

Dave Hyman 13:40

Yeah, I think I think just some overarching principles that I would say I've learned from failure. Uh I I I can't think of a specific example, or or certainly there's ones that come to mind that probably involve people that um would be just you know, just careful to s to navigate through that. But uh certainly something I've learned is that uh I don't have all the answers. Um, I I am far from perfect, and I will gladly recognize that and say, I am not the smartest person in the room. I'm not uh, you know, I don't have all the answers, and that's okay. Uh I'm okay with that, and I'm going to enjoy that, and I'm gonna I'm gonna enjoy uh together as a team, we're gonna go achieve great things and have fun doing it and do it with excellence. So uh I think I've just learned that hey, it's okay uh to fail and to to learn from it.

Todd Wuestenberg 14:31

It's important to learn from it. Uh-oh, absolutely, absolutely. Kind of kind of go off script here a little bit. And um, you know, I think here in our organization, we've have developed a culture where uh people understand that and that uh we uh you know we talk about a lot, you know, Dave, I hear you talk about it a lot uh at meetings, you know, this idea of failing forward or another term we sometimes talk about is failing fast, you know. What is the benefit of failing fast? And I'll I'll stick with you, Dave, on that one.

Dave Hyman 15:00

Yeah, you know, I think there's probably two schools of thought on on business strategy and stuff. You can work really hard uh and move slowly to get the perfect answer. Um, and there's nothing wrong with that. That that's a that's a worthwhile solution is to you know to evaluate and analyze and to really work at that. Uh personally, I I fall a little bit more in the category of I'm gonna fail fast and uh I believe I'm gonna reach the same result, the same, maybe hopefully I'm a step ahead of you uh when we get there, you know, versus the other. But I just think that uh failing quickly allows you to uh learn and to navigate through different ideas and to see what's going to work. Um try try several different ones and and understand what's gonna help move an organization forward.

Todd Wuestenberg 15:44

Yeah, find those solutions quickly, yeah. Um Tron, gonna ask you a different question. When leaders fail to to reflect rightly and learn from that, what's at stake when leaders fail to learn?

Tron Scott 15:59

Yeah, trust could begin to erode. Okay. Um it it's and then the communication then starts to break down. Okay. And sometimes, you know, if the trust has begun to erode, um even and and if communication is good, maybe that maybe that message isn't coming through clear. Okay. Uh because the trust has broke down a bit. Uh so I it as a leader it's important. Uh you know, does do we have to think about every step we've taken and and weigh every option? Well, no, because then we'll get bogged down, right? We need to keep moving forward. But that that's why with experience and and the ability to to to use your team and count on your team, you know, helps keep keep you moving forward. Keep you moving forward.

Todd Wuestenberg 16:42

Uh again, Tron, you you triggered something, and again, something we talk about, you know, uh culture is a lot about language terms that we use, and we say that no decision is a bad decision sometimes.

Dave Hyman 16:55

Um I think that you have to you have to understand that momentum can be a powerful thing, yeah. And just the status quo is dangerous. No, you know, like so many things in life, it's a road with a ditch on each side. Sure. You can change for the sake of change, and I've been guilty of that, right? I I love uh, you know, it's it's been said that Dave loves everything new and shiny, and and so there's new ideas come. And and I view it a little bit as my role to try and challenge an organization to see what's out there, what's new, and to help us not become the status quo. But change for the sake of change is hard on an organization, right? It's hard on people. Absolutely. Most people don't like change. Right. Uh and you know, you go to try and change my morning routine, and I'm gonna be like, I like my morning routine. I I do the same thing five days a week. You know, so just um but yeah, understanding the why I think is really important.

Todd Wuestenberg 17:51

Absolutely. Tron, I appreciate you talking about your coaching experience because I want to kind of dovetail off of that. And um and we could probably sit here and talk about sports and and uh maybe we should do an episode someday where we talk about Iowa State athletics, that would be a fun one. But uh in your coaching experience, you I think you bring a unique perspective. And we've been in meetings before where you talk about uh you know high school athletics, you know, coaching basketball specifically, but why that's such a good lesson uh for young people to learn, and then specifically how does that translate into the workplace? Sure.

Tron Scott 18:29

Uh I I but I'm a huge believer that sports is a microcosm of life.

unknown 18:34

Okay.

Tron Scott 18:35

It's it's a place where um as a young person you can go and be a part of a team, okay, and and the connection there for me is a team and your workplace, right? And you can be a part of a team and safely learn how to experience success and how to how to handle um a failure. And and what's a failure, right? A failure may be a loss of a game, or it may be you are not participating as much as you want. And how does that translate to the business world? Well, maybe your your coworker next in the cubicle next to you gets the promotion, okay? They get put into the game, and you you are not. Well, you're still a part of a team, and your boss is your coach, and you want to help that team continue to grow, continue to achieve, and work toward that common goal. So I I'm a massive believer in uh high school athletics can help help teach people, teach young people how to experience that success or failure.

Dave Hyman 19:41

Or failure.

Tron Scott 19:42

I I think you're spot on, right?

Dave Hyman 19:44

You you miss a layup or you don't catch a pass. Um, what do you do? You go start throwing the tennis ball, or you know, just uh you you can do stuff to improve that. I mean, there's lots of things out there that you can do to improve your ability to catch a catch a basketball. Um, or you can just say, well, I'm a middle-aged man playing C League basketball that I think. I guess I'm good enough. But I think the same thing's true in your work career, right? You you get something, you get some constructive feedback. And hey, it's it's incumbent on us as leaders to give that feedback for people to understand, hey, you could be better if you did this. Like uh so they need to hear that feedback. But so you get some of that feedback. Hey, uh Dave, you could be better if you uh, you know, XYZ. Well, what are you gonna do with that? Are you comfortable with just, uh, I guess I'm good being a middle-aged uh, you know, uh manager here, whatever? Or do you want to be better? Do you want to be, do you want to make the layup at the end of this basketball game? And so what are you gonna do to go work on it? What what motivation do you have internally to get better at that stuff?

Todd Wuestenberg 20:44

Yeah, Dave, I was gonna ask the question, you know, where do you see opportunities for leaders in the workplace uh to create that same kind of learning environment? And yeah, you you hit it spot on giving feedback.

Dave Hyman 20:54

Yeah, I mean communication. Communication is clear. You know, and I I don't remember who said it, certainly not me, and uh nothing's original with me. I usually try and just pick it up. But you know, whenever you think that you're uh over-communicating, you're really just starting to communicate. And I think that's so true in business and life and and in all those things. And so being able to give that feedback so that an employee, uh coworker, a teammate uh understands just that relationship and has that feed that feedback.

Tron Scott 21:24

They know where their role is at. Some of the best teams know their role, and the and those leaders are able to communicate that role. And um, you know, if you want to talk about Iowa State basketball a little bit, an effective leadership. T.J Otzelberger is the head men's coach at Iowa State, and his leadership style is fantastic because what he does is he takes his staff and he has them divided up, and he has an offensive side and a defensive side, and they have clear defined roles, and they have uh their the defensive side is is Kyle Green and J.R. Blunt. And they have clear vested interest. And if you watch their games, T.J is not in the huddle. He's standing back. And if it's a defensive huddle, J.R. Blunt or Kyle is in there talking. On the offensive side, it's Nate Schmidt and Eric Crawford, and usually it's Nate Schmidt in there talking. But that that leadership style is fantastic because it that at that point, there's not any, they they're they limit their cracks in what they're how they're going to break down. Or in the business world, they mitigate their risk, right? That something's going to be missed or not communicated. Because all five of those guys have different communication styles, right?

Dave Hyman 22:36

Sure, sure. Right. I think that's one of the great things about building a team is you, you know, if you had everybody that looked like yourself, what's the purpose of that team? Right. You need all the different styles and all the different voices and to help achieve great things.

Tron Scott 22:50

Yes.

Dave Hyman 22:51

Yep.

Todd Wuestenberg 22:52

All right. Well, I'm going to park here for a little bit because you know I love Iowa State basketball and uh we all three follow it very closely. So let's let's camp about on T.J for a second. I'd love to get your perspective. Let's literally talk about lessons learned from losses and from your observations as sports fans. What do you admire? And as leaders in an organization, what do you admire about somebody like T.J after they go through some adversity, they have a loss, and they recover from that? And Tron was talking with you. What do you admire about his leadership?

Tron Scott 23:22

Well, okay, so specifically coming off of a loss. Sure. Okay, so it's it's hard to know the inner workings of what they do. Okay. So uh just as from observing, so I had I've been able to go to a practice and watch them actually work at practice, okay, and how he leads his practice. And then watching them through when they go to T they went to TCU, so talking about their their current schedule or recent schedule, they went to TCU, got beat, uh not a good loss, and they come home and they beat Kansas. And as I watched, as I looked at their stats, their three loss, the the their three losses, they had some guys not have getting very big minutes. And so they come home Big Monday, which was just a few days ago, and they played Houston, and he ended up sitting uh under with three minutes to three, three and a half minutes to go, two of his starters, uh Toure, um Killyan Toure and Momcilovic, Milan Monchil Momcilovich. And I think at that point he, him and his staff, maybe not exactly right there in the middle of the game, but had probably conversed and said, what do we need to do to win these big games because we're having an issue? And they they understood the issue. Uh and uh the issue was they have a breakdown defensively when certain players are maybe on the floor, but then conversely, they have a breakdown offensively. And they it looked like they tried to find the middle ground. And the middle ground was we can put better defenders on the floor who are also, excuse me, better offensive players, but maybe not better defenders, but better defenders, but maybe not better offensive players, but as a whole, we think we get better. And I think that probably won the game for them against Houston because Heise and Toure, excuse me, Heise and Bateman played late. Toure and Momcilovic did not. Now those are two starters. Okay? I think that from that leadership style, they brought those guys along. They were meaning Bateman got better, Hecy got better, they talk as a staff, and it looked like from a distance that that was the decision they made and that made their team better. They were willing to communicate, kept coaching those guys, bring them along, and that put them in a spot to win the game. I personally, I'm not sure they win it with Toure and Milan on the floor.

Todd Wuestenberg 25:57

You know, after that game, uh love talking about this kind of stuff, but I was really impressed with how T.J uh was very complimentary about Momcilovic and how he responded to that. And uh and I think Momcilovic showed great leadership because that's that's what coach was talking about. It's like, hey, here's a guy who um could have maybe pouted. You know, we just talked about this earlier. You know, how do you respond to this adversity? And he he's a great teammate, you know. Still supporting the team, absolutely, and he's celebrating the team's success. And yeah, that's and I think that's a reflection of T.J.

Dave Hyman 26:30

Yeah. You know, I think too, along those lines, sometimes it's easier to uh have a good attitude when it's going well. Yeah. Absolutely winning makes it a little bit easier. Um, but there's times, and I think of times where boy, we've just struggled. You know, we've had some great successes here at Haverkamp Group, and it's fun to celebrate those successes, but we've also we're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, certainly not myself. And so we've had failures and difficult times. And boy, those are hard years that you work hard and it just feels like it's failure after failure. But what are you learning from that? What are you taking away? What are you well, what are you helping your team still learn? Still leading your team, even when it's difficult, right?

Todd Wuestenberg 27:12

Absolutely. That's that was good, Dave, because that's a good teaser to use for our next episode to get Brent and Paul in here. We're gonna talk about the failures of Haverkamp over the years and what they learned from their positions as leaders to help the company grow and get better. Yep, yep. So uh so thinking about leadership uh throughout the organization, uh do you think we do things differently here when it comes to failure that has helped us to go? That maybe what you've seen um in interactions with other organizations. How do you think we respond to setbacks as leaders here? Dave, what's that stay with you?

Dave Hyman 27:46

Yeah, I think I yeah, I think we're different. Um how different I I don't have a lot of great perspective into other organizations uh just from surface surface level. And so I think there's probably been a bigger cultural shift towards uh failure is okay. Um and I could be wrong on that, but just uh it feels like just as times have changed, you know, failure's been embraced a little bit more to understand what that is. Um but yes, certainly here, I think we're not uh at least I work hard at trying to uh not punish, you know, that's a it's a tough word, but not to um be negative towards failure, that there's positives that can be gained from it. No, nobody wants it to like, let's be honest, we we'd rather win than fail. But right, I think a little bit's okay every now and then to help learn. And you know, we set quarterly goals. Um, and so sometimes, you know, just in the the team that I get a chance to lead, we set these quarterly goals and we're achieving uh our metric for what we want to hit every quarter. And I'm like, you know what? We've done three out of four quarters here, we've achieved it. Let's make sure our goals are a little bit more aggressive and let's shoot for maybe trying to fail one quarter, or I lead that way just so that we uh we can have a little bit of challenge ahead of us. Absolutely.

Todd Wuestenberg 29:02

Tron, uh, you're newer to the organization, so you're coming in from the you know the outside a little bit uh more recently. What have your observations been in terms of what you've observed with the leadership and their attitude when it comes to failure? Again, going back to what Brent said in his episode that you know, when we we miss out on an opportunity to learn from failure, and then that's a sad thing. So yeah, what's your observations?

Tron Scott 29:27

Right. Observation is leadership as Brent and Paul specifically, that that there that Paul's always helping to try and learn if if things are not quite going how we want them to go. And maybe it's not necessarily a failure, you know, failure means that's the end result. You know, we're not to the end result yet, but uh always trying to encourage and and and help understand, hey, what's the next step to find success? That's what that's what I've learned that the support is is excellent.

Todd Wuestenberg 30:02

Support, yeah, absolutely. I think you hit the the nail on the head there too. And something you know we do in our organization is you know, when it comes to the goals, Dave, you talked about it with milestones, you know, it's important to say, okay, yeah, here's the goal, but how do we measure whether we're we're trending in the right direction?

Dave Hyman 30:17

Well, I think that's crucial with any goal. If you're gonna have a 10-year goal, what are your milestones to get there? Absolutely. Uh what are your what are your three-year goals and uh you know, what's your what's your one-year plan?

Todd Wuestenberg 30:26

Okay, so we're gonna start to wrap things up, and so I want you guys to just take a moment and think, uh, you know, is there something that I wished I would have said about failing forward that you know I didn't get the opportunity to, or maybe that slipped your mind? And uh yeah, Tron, let's go with you. Anything that you wish you would have said that you didn't?

Tron Scott 30:44

Well, um, I don't think so. You know, it's it's uh failure is is we've talked a lot about failure, and we we have said failure is good. It's not like and I w Dave and I are probably walking around every day looking for a problem and looking for a failure because we're not. But but it shapes you and molds you, and at times it it will uh it it humbles you and where you do the self-reflection and you say, Yeah, maybe I didn't know what I was talking about there. Uh-huh. And and you try and learn from that and keep moving forward and celebrate the successes, celebrate them. And um, because we we we we've we have more more successes than we do failures for sure. We do. Um, and at HG, it's it's just we have the track record that that's how that works.

Dave Hyman 31:38

So yeah, I don't know. I would I just uh we've talked a lot about failing, and I think it's important. I think that you can't be afraid of failure. And uh I I love doing some hiking, backpacking, and I love setting an ambitious goal. And whenever I go out and I get a chance to do that, I always seem to increase my goal. I always seem to try and say, okay, well, I plan to do this part of it in three days. Can we do it in two? Let's see if we can do it in two, you know, or or hey, we were gonna try and get to the top of that, you know. Uh the the 30-year-old hiking with me. Well, can I beat him? You know, can I can I hike just a little bit faster? And it's fun to challenge yourself and not be afraid of that. And it's fun then to to see and to, you know, I've talked about before. Wait, when you're in the valley of of the hiking trip, you don't get a chance to see the views that you get from the summit. And when you get the chance to to have a uh audacious goal, to hit that summit and to be able to look around and say, wow, that's pretty cool. That that's a fun reward.

Tron Scott 32:44

And so Tron said it well. Celebrate those. Dave Dave made a comment earlier about not being paralyzed or or to make that decision. Right. Um, and and that's that's a great, great statement because you know, being paralyzed makes you makes everything what you're doing is cumbersome and slow and bulky. And to to keep working and being have self-reflection and use your team, and that's how you get to that summit. That's that's really good, Dave. Good job.

Todd Wuestenberg 33:12

Try and appreciate what you said about celebrating uh success. Yes, we've talked a lot about failure, but I think you guys do a great job of celebrating success. I'm just thinking of an example. The other day, Dave, when we were in a meeting and one of our team members was kind of beating himself up a little bit about some different results that had come in, and you quickly said, you know, let him self-reflect a little bit, but then you were like, hey, let's look at these positive things. Look at all these great things. And yeah, you brought good perspective.

Dave Hyman 33:40

Well, right. Leadership's about needing to understand when somebody needs lifted up and leaderships need uh you know, every now and then uh just a little air needs let out of my ego. And so I Tron just throws me a basketball and watches it bounce off me, and that helps me to stay humble.

Todd Wuestenberg 33:55

For the record, we don't play anymore. Well, I don't. He might, but I don't I think Dave does. I've heard some stories about him trying to play against some of his you know college sons and that kind of thing.

Dave Hyman 34:04

You know, I had a goal in my life of being able to play competitive basketball with my kids, and I managed to achieve that. Just you know, you keep your body in a shape and an ability, and so uh I don't play a lot, but I've been able to play competitive basketball with my kids, and that's very rewarding for me. Uh it's fun to watch your kid uh you know look better than you, and that's okay.

Todd Wuestenberg 34:25

Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. Um I don't know why I want to say this, but I'm gonna say it, and maybe Grayden can cut this one out, you know. Uh, but there's a reason, not just because you're tall, that you're sitting towards the back. Tron, why are you why are you sitting closest to the camera? What did you say as we were walking in here?

Tron Scott 34:42

Well, I assumed it was clearly by looks. I mean, we want Dave as far away from the camera as possible.

Todd Wuestenberg 34:50

All right, I just had to say that just because it was so funny when you came. I mean, you didn't even skip a beat when you said, Oh, I'm sitting close to the camera because yeah, gotta keep Dave away from the camera. Got to come back, Dave. You got anything? No reason at all. Yes. Yes, yes. Very good. Uh uh, Tron, Dave, thank you for uh joining us today. And uh yeah, really wanted to get you guys together in the same room because I knew it would be fun. Plus, I also knew that your perspectives and your insights would be helpful. Uh, and I really appreciate you joining us today. That's great. Thanks, Todd. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. And to our listeners, I want to say thank you for joining us on Haverchat, a leadership podcast. And we hope that you found today's uh episode entertaining as well as informative, and that you learned a few things about what it means to fail forward and how you can use that opportunity to grow, not just as a leader, but also as a person. So be sure to join Haverchat as we continue to have conversations with leaders who are making a difference every day. And until next time, keep leading with purpose.